Un-Memorizing the “Silence is Sexy” Date Script

movie-date

A woman once told me pointedly something that has stayed with me to this day.  We were kissing.  Lying on the cold wood floor, my hand traveled across her stomach and she whispered, “I think we should take it slow.”  I agreed immediately.  Before moving in to kiss her again, I said, “Just tell me when to stop.”

This, I thought, was considerate.  Respectful.  Sexy.  But she quickly corrected my mistake.  Pulling away from me, her face took on a serious expression and the words she spoke illuminated a misunderstanding I had long nurtured, even as I knew myself to be a thoughtful feminist with much respect for other women.

In essence, what she said was, “Women are not given enough opportunities to say ‘yes.'”

Oh, I thought.  Huh.  What a wonderfully radical idea.  But I mean, isn’t it strange that this idea is so radical?  Women saying yes.  It’s not radical because women never want sex or agree to have it, but because the typical “sexy” date script society expects and encourages from us usually involves a man trying whatever he wants and a woman either putting the brakes on, or consenting…by not putting the brakes on.  Sound familiar?

We’ve gotten the idea from movies and magazines that silence is sexy.  Ultimate romance means fireworks and fairy dust sprinkling down from the heavens and instilling in us some magical intuition where both people suddenly just know what the other wants.  Speaking out loud in full sentences would break the rhythm, ruining the mystical thrill of the spontaneous moment.  And GOD FORBID you ask permission to do anything.  I mean, come on, major boner killer.

But here’s the thing.  The “sexy silence” model is based on two stupid and outdated assumptions: 1) that a man’s pleasure takes priority over a woman’s, and 2) that a woman’s pleasure must be expected and assumed, because how could she ever resist a man?  The “just say no” part of the rule didn’t always exist.  That developed later when society realized that women should have some say in the matter.  Duh.

But “just say no” isn’t enough.  Imagine this: since men are expected to make the first move in the majority of sexual situations, where does that leave women if they’re not yet sure what they want?  This “sexy silence” standard makes saying “no” or “stop” even harder for women who want to feel sexy but don’t necessarily want to do what their partner wants to do; who want a hug goodnight, but not a kiss; who are excited about kissing, but uncomfortable with petting; who are enthusiastic about making out, but aren’t ready for sex.  Being forced to say “no” or “stop” will invariably make the experience end sooner than it might otherwise, and on a rather negative note, even if it started positively with both people excited.  Come to think of it, I can’t think of anything less sexy or romantic than making an enthusiastic move and being pushed away, or having to tell someone whom I like to stop what they’re doing.

Even more troubling is the possibility that a woman might not know how or when to put the brakes on, and by simply hesitating for too long, could end up doing any variety of things against her innermost wishes.  Oh wait!  That happens all the time.  It’s called rape.  That’s right.  The “silence is sexy” model is a big part of how we created rape culture.

Soooooo what alternatives do we have?  How do we keep sexy things fun and respectful without placing the heavy burden on the woman to be a killjoy (and in a hurry) in order to maintain her boundaries?

whereisyourline.org

whereisyourline.org

Here’s an idea.  Give women some agency by pausing now and then and allowing them to say YES and ask for what they want!  I swear,  it is sexy as hell to give somebody exactly what you know they want, without wondering if you’re guessing wrong.

Silence is only sexy because we like to assume that everybody is on the same page!  Imagine how much sexier it would be if you didn’t have to assume, if a woman said, “Yes, please do that.  I like that.”  To have a woman actively pursue what she wants, and not just passively receive what someone assumes she wants, guarantees more fun and more pleasure for both parties.  Just think of all the pornography that depicts women screaming “yes!”  Consent is sexy; giving someone what they want is sexy; knowing without a doubt that your partner is satisfied is sexy.

What if you pause or ask and she says “no” anyway, you might wonder?  Wouldn’t that kill the mood just as much?  Well, look at it this way.  It’s hard to say “no” in a sexy way if somebody is already trying to have sex with you.  If you try that it will probably be misunderstood, so firmness is somewhat necessary.  On the other hand, a question or a request for permission can be a sultry whisper, and “no” can be a shake of the head and an alternate suggestion.  Boom.  Sexy.

And it doesn’t have to impact dominance or submission either.  A woman with agency doesn’t necessarily have to kiss someone; she could ask someone to kiss her.  Either way, the positive agency is what is important.  That is, being instrumental in the action, instead of only reacting, and focusing first on what she wants, instead of what she doesn’t want.

For example, when this woman (the same one) and I first discussed our interest in each other, I exclaimed desperately how much I wanted to kiss her, and even though she had already told me she wanted me, she expressed hesitation about the kiss, saying, “I’m not sure…”

Turns out, she just needed to think about it.  The next night I asked her, “What do you want?” and she boldly kissed me for the first time.  Later she told me that she had been pleasantly surprised when I didn’t immediately kiss her after she said she wasn’t sure.  “I honestly thought you would anyway,” she said.

And these are just two examples out of a dozen.  In those beginning days, we both solidified our mutual understanding that consent doesn’t mean not saying no; it means YES!

And guess what?  Almost two years later, she is still my girlfriend.  Shazam.

Kissing Black-tailed Prairie Dogs (Cynomys lud...

P.S. How cute are these kissing prairie dogs???

 

Advertisements

496 responses to “Un-Memorizing the “Silence is Sexy” Date Script

  1. Judie –
    I would like to respond to one particular rather off-hand comment you made:
    “The fact that your ex-wife tried to take advantage of societal generalizations to accuse you of rape and molestation (I assume in both cases she her attempt was unsuccessful, since you don’t say you’re in jail),”

    Whoa, there! Seriously, is whether or not someone ends up in jail an appropriate measure of whether or not a false accusation of rape was “successful”? How many tens of thousands of dollars did he spend in legal defense? How many people who knew him now suspect him of being a rapist? A woman doesn’t have to get a man convicted of rape to be “successful” in ruining him.

    • The real question I ask, when women make these false accusations [whether successful or not], is how does that affect our social response to those victims where assualt really did occur? From what I understand, it merely builds a local perogative to ignore or belittle victims, thus keeping the real animals free from punishment, while only further punishing the real victims by shoving them towards isolation.

      There’s always three sides to a story, of course: his side, her side, and the truth.

      • Let’s be honest, Tom. In this world, what good reason would a woman have for falsely accusing someone of rape? There are so many repercussions and it is extremely scary and difficult to come forward with this information when it is true, so it is extremely unlikely that in any case a survivor is lying about being assaulted or raped.

        We need to start believing survivors stories, because there are many many more that do not come forward than do and we need to create a world that is not so scary for survivors to disclose their status should they choose.

        • You’re right about one thing… All accusations need to be taken seriously. That being said, false accusations are made every day. just google “Duke Lacrosse”. There are a myriad of reasons for these false accusations.

          • Rape sympathizers/deniers always tout “women rape men too” or “women falsely accuse men of rape”. Rape can happen to men by other men and rape can happen to children. And rape is most often never reported and therefore never prosecuted. Most rapists repeat their crime again and again. Yes, there is an extremely small margin of false accusations that in no way compares to the massive number of true crimes. Rape during times of war has historically been a certainty, occurs en masse and is almost never prosecutable. So, ONE case of a false accusation (if it truly is false) does not magically erase all other rapes.

        • A girl I went to highschool with was crazy obsessed in love with her boyfriend. He wanted to break things off with her. She threatened to kill herself. He told her she was manipulative and then left her. She told her parents he raped her. He was in jail before her friend came forward and showed the court text messages from the girl bragging and joking about how she got him sent to jail when he was innocent and “hell learn now”

    • Unfortunately Topher, the accused(if male) is guilty until proven innocent. If they can not prove innocence, then guilt is assumed. Approximately 50% of reported rapes are false reports according to independent studies that I have linked elsewhere in these comments, with the average punishment for men being between 7-12 years of prison and being on a rape roster for the rest of their lives. For the times I was accused, I was fortunate. In the case of my teens, the girl along with one other came forward and outed her parents. The one in my early 20’s was exonerated by physical evidence. I.E. a medical exam clearly showed that my child had not been molested or raped, and there was no circumstantial evidence because the event never happened. When my ex started that, I left. Having been through it twice, I wasn’t going to put myself through that again. So I left before the situation had a chance to go into legal battles where it would have been impossible to prove my innocence. Since guilt is assumed, she wouldn’t have had to prove anything. I am no fool and I very much value my freedom.

      Suffice to say that the better part of 15 years of my life were spent on the defense for this BS, for things I never even THOUGHT about doing, things that I find physically disgusting. So, yes, I have a lot to say when the rape word gets thrown around, definitions get changed, and people start calling calling/insinuating other people rapists.

      • I’m having a very hard time with your supposed “statistic” of 50% of rape allegations are false. I am willing to believe that your ex wife’s allegation was false and that sometimes others are too, but 50%?? What kind of “independent study?” Sounds pretty convenient to me, and the opposite of every other study I’ve EVER heard about or read/seen. Also, that would mean there are a lot of gutsy women out there, willing to risk a lot for whatever potential gain. I’m not sure where you live in the world, but in most places in America, women are shamed into not reporting rape, are often called sluts and whores if they do report, and have to undergo long traumatic waits while their allegation is proved, during which they may have support from family or friends, but many will disbelieve and treat them with disrespect and cruelty. While rape is being investigated, the woman is often assumed to be lying, depending on the person who is accused (because yes, our culture still profiles, and if this happened to you, I’m horribly sorry but I’m not sure how you can blame women or feminists when it is men who dominate the legal system), in order to protect men from false accusations.

        Another thing: The whole idea that being raped and having a damaged reputation are similar fates is just offensive and diminishes the horror of being violated and used to one’s very core. Your perspective is very idealistic, assuming that women have influence in the legal system, that a woman would actually risk damaging her own reputation and sometimes status or job in order to damage someone else’s reputation. It is patriarchy that thinks all women are so base and petty.

        • The link here is to two peer reviewed studies. They are not my claims, they are researched statistics. I know that is inconvenient, but look at the comments about the methodology used in most rape studies and you will see why the difference exists. The feminist agenda has been marginalizing male victims for a long time. Open your eyes up to the bigger picture.

          http://www.genderratic.com/p/836/manufacturing-female-victimhood-and-marginalizing-vulnerable-men/

          I never claimed being raped and having a damaged reputation were similar fates, or even equivalent fates. I said they are both fucked up fates. As for women having pull in the political arena where do you think all the gender equality and sexual harassment laws come from?

          You think men are NOT shamed into not reporting? Many of them end up committing suicide. Don’t take my word for it, go look at the numbers for yourself. What you are doing here is dismissing male victimization because it doesn’t fit with your world view. The truth is that most ‘rape studies’ are defined in ways that basically eliminate any possibility of men showing up on the study.

          • I am NOT dismissing male victimization. Holy shit. Men are raped too, I know, and they face an even harder time than women getting help, because victim status is viewed by the patriarchy as feminine, which is negative.

            I am dismissing the idea that a man accused of rape is a victim, NOT that a man who has been raped is.

          • Studies about men being raped are completely different from studies about most rape allegations being false. The latter is what you said first, so that is what I responded to.

          • Also, do you realize what you just implied? That all gender equality and sexual harassment laws come from women? That statement is not going to support your “everybody is already equal” men’s rights cause, so I suggest finding a new response to that question.

          • @Yourlesbianfriend
            >”I am dismissing the idea that a man accused of rape is a victim”

            I’m actually floored that you said that, but still, it is not unusual.

            >”Studies about men being raped are completely different from studies about most rape allegations being false”

            In either case the numbers speak for themselves, and they are both valid complaints. Both destroy lives.

            (Let me recap some of this since we are bouncing back and forth pretty fast.)
            The outline of the original debate point:
            >You:”Your perspective is very idealistic, **assuming that women have influence in the legal system**, that a woman would actually risk damaging her own reputation and sometimes status or job in order to damage someone else’s reputation.”

            >Me: “As for women having pull in the political arena where do you think all the gender equality and sexual harassment laws come from?”

            >You: “Also, do you realize what you just implied? That all gender equality and sexual harassment laws come from women? That statement is not going to support your “everybody is already equal” men’s rights cause, so I suggest finding a new response to that question.”

            So, to my mind, there is no reason to restate my case. If feminist have no legal pull, then the gender equality laws were instituted by this nebulous ‘patriarchy’, which means you are hating on your benefactor. If feminist DO have legal pull, then you nullify your first statement entirely. Either way, you invalidate yourself.

            More to the point, the research proves that people, not just women, do that kind of crap for petty revenge or to simply cover their own butts, without care or concern for the consequences of their actions. Read the research paper. Please do not reject it out of hand like you have been trying to do thus far.

            Also, I would point out that laws do not equality make. The laws are PART of the solution, but not the entirety. If they were, then everyone would have been perfectly equal since the induction of the constitution and the bill of rights, at least in the U.S.

          • “Laws do not equality make. The laws are PART of the solution, but not the entirety.” I completely agree. In fact, my feminist goals have very little to do with laws. I think the laws make us look equal when we are not, because of many other complex reasons mostly having to do with socialization. I don’t think feminists have much legal pull, but that does not mean that patriarchy is my benefactor. It means that patriarchy got a few thorns in its side and flinched. Patriarchy is a system of oppression, not a group of people. A woman can reinforce the patriarchal system; a man can reinforce the patriarchal system. Laws are instituted by people. The fact that the law changed to include the bill of rights and suffrage for women is great and it was a crucial step, but it took decades to make those changes, and much of the socialization of girls and boys has gotten more drastic in backlash.

            I will leave the rest of the discussion to Judie, who has more patience than I do.

          • Dude, you’re an idiot. She said she was NOT (that is N-O-T dismissing male victimization. Your stats are ridiculously off. I don’t know what you’re on, but it’s affecting your brain-cells. Quit now.

          • RAVaught….. the article listed here is NOT a Peer reviewed journal article! Just because your peers read it does not make it “Peer reviewed”…. The definition of Peer Reviewed is: a process by which something proposed (as for research or publication) is evaluated by a group of experts in the appropriate field – which is FAR from what this article is. It however does have references in the articles that seem to be legit peer reviewed journal articles. However this does not mean that what this person has written is correct at all….( MANY people can take perfectly correct information and misuse it to make a false claim) I have done research in this area….. Professional academic research (which has standards and methods) and I have never come across the numbers and figures that are presented in the article you linked. But I did take a look at what other types of things and ideas have been presented on that website and from what I have seen it is quite sexist, misguided, pure opinion, and un-factual.

        • I would like to back up yourlesbianfriend on this, because I personally know women who have been raped and not reported it, either because they didn’t want to legal battle (which costs them, time and money and stress and requires a great deal of commitment) or because they didn’t want to describe the trauma in a public setting. I also know women who tried to report rape to college officials and were put in mental care for emotional instability and basically told to shut up (because that schools don’t want their rape cases known about).
          Ravaught, you’re coming from a place that assumes women have great control over the legal, institutional and cultural world because you have experiences in which you felt women had enough power over you to bring havoc into your life. You felt you were treated as guilty until proven innocent. Does it occur to you that this happens to women too – many of them, and that the system at large is not some giant man-hating machine contrived or controlled by feminists?

          • Unfortunately, it is pointless to debate this any further. The debaters here have been given researched evidence which they chose to ignore in favor of propaganda. I can’t debate with that. The twisted methodology of other research has been cited, not just by myself, not just on this blog, but all over the place and in great detail.

            I have repeatedly, REPEATEDLY said that we need to step back and quit making this about men and women and start making it about people, regardless of their gender, yet I am continually forced to argue the male vs. female case because all anyone can talk about is how much whichever societal group they are pulling for has been victimized and how powerless they are to do anything. If we can not break through that mental and emotional barrier on our patterns of thinking we are all screwed.

            I do not think women have all the power. There is no ‘matriarchy’. I do not think men have all the power. There is no ‘patriarchy’ any more. Men do not sit around thinking of ways to keep you weak and in the kitchen. I do not think all feminist are mysandrist. I think the ideology of feminism PROMOTES mysandry by simultaneously demonizing and dismissing males. They are the root of all your problems and their problems are easily dismissed, as the OP stated has done in her own words while refusing to even consider evidence that has been presented. I think feminism ignores the very people it claims to be serving. I think articles like this imply that women have no capacity for making up their own minds, and I think that is ridiculous.

            You justify all the damages done by false accusations by completely dismissing them as noteworthy, yet expect us to be incensed over women who can not make up their mind getting in over their heads because they failed to take any reasonable, rational precautions whatsoever. You change definitions to fit your propaganda, completely unconcerned about whether or not anyone else knows exactly which definition you are using. Molestation becomes rape. Rape becomes a woman’s thing only, with only men as perpetrators.

            To those few on here who have engaged in enlightened, if occasionally emotional or high-spirited debate, thank you. People like you are the only reason I continue to try to open lines of communication with feminist in the hopes of bringing some awareness to the damage that the ideology leaves in its wake.

            To those who sought strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks rather then tackle the actual data and information that has been presented. I hope that one day you will grow curious enough that you actually seek out the reasonable truth for yourself instead of swallowing ever line you are fed hook, line, and sinker.

            Tonight, I travel home from work for the first time in six weeks where I will finally have the luxury of spending some much need time with my lovely wife and awesome kids. I will not trouble you on here any more, so the OP will not have to defer to someone with more patience.

            “People(Groups) are stupid. They will believe a lie because they want to believe it’s true, or because they are afraid it might be true.”
            ― Terry Goodkind, Wizard’s First Rule

        • “The most common reasons given by victims for not reporting rapes are the belief that it is a personal or private matter, and that they fear reprisal from the assailant. A 2007 government report in England says “Estimates from research suggest that between 75 and 95 percent of rape crimes are never reported to the police.”[6]”

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

          so if 50% of all reported rape cases are false and only 5% are reported, then that equals a 2.5% false accusation rate. even if its at the higher end, much higher than the estimate, say.. 40% then it is still only 20% of cases.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

          according to here, 8% is the fbi standard for false accusations,

          i know wp is lazy sourcing but, still

      • There is no such thing as “physical evidence” that a child has “not been molested”.

        It’s quite possible you could have touched your child inappropriately, and there is no way a medical exam could prove that you didn’t. All it could show is weather your child has been penetrated or not.

        I honestly could not picture a mother who would put her child through a humiliating exam when she did not suspect foul play. Furthermore, methinks thou doth protest too much.

  2. Like the article, comment debate meh. I am wondering is some people read the same article as I did.
    You should be able to talk to each other during sex; what you like, what you don’t like. That way it is more fun for both of us. Whoever and whatever you are doing.
    I would rather have a man ask me what I liked, if not I would hope I would feel comfortable enough to tell him!
    Personally, I am four foot eleven, 50kgs and petite. Most men I have slept with are on average a foot taller and weigh nearly twice as much as I do. It is easy to feel physically intimidated when this is the case which I doubt it is for the majority of men.
    This all boils down to: consent is sexy.Whoever is asking.

  3. Pingback: Un-Memorizing the “Silence is Sexy” Date Script | UnCool Before UnCool Was Cool·

  4. The people debating here are in serious need of some basic information regarding rape. While there may or may not be some attitudes in the wider culture that contributes to rape the fact is MOST rapists have been sexually abuse when young by a WOMAN:

    Most rapists were subjected to some form of sexual abuse in childhood. A startling amount is perpetrated by females. Peer-reviewed studies conclude that between 60% to 80% of “rapists, sex offenders and sexually aggressive men” were sexually abused by a female. […] According to a 2004 U.S. Department of Education mass study of university students, 57% of students reporting child sexual abuse cited a male offender, and 42% reported a female offender. Interestingly, 65% of the survivors of female abuse who opened up to a therapist, doctor or other professional were not believed on their first disclosure. Overall, 86% of those who tried to tell anyone at all about their experiences were not believed. According to a 1996 report from the National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect (NCCAN), about 25% of child sexual abuse is committed by women, but that figure may be low, because survivors are far more conflicted and shamed in admitting abuse by their mothers than by fathers. In one study of 17,337 survivors of childhood sexual abuse, 23% reported a female-only perpetrator and 22% reported both male and female. A U.S. Department of Justice report finds that, in 2008, 95% of all youths reporting sexual misconduct by staff member in state juvenile facilities said their victimization experiences included victimization by female personnel, who made up 42% of the staff. […] One study found 8% of female perpetrators were teachers and 23% were babysitters.

    http://feck-blog.blogspot.no/2011/10/rapists-who-were-sexually-abused-by.html

    The discussion is also always framed as being about MEN raping women and it frames men in general as having something wrong with them that leads them to rape that women do not have. In other words men gets framed as evil and women as benign. But the actual number of men who experience rape in a given year is not trailing far behind the number of women who get raped in a year and a huge percentage of the men that get raped get raped by women. Why doN`t most people know this you ask? Because in government statistics rape is defined so that only men being anally or orally penetrated by a woman with a hand or object rapes a man but a woman who forces a man to have vaginal or anal intercourse with him where his penis is inside of her is not raping him. Legally this is rape but in government statistics it is not defined as rape. When you inlcude htis form of forced “envelopment” as rape, which of course it should be and it legally is, then the number of raped men skyrocket. Have a look for yourself:

    http://www.genderratic.com/p/836/manufacturing-female-victimhood-and-marginalizing-vulnerable-men/

    I am sure you all have hear about the extremely high levels of rape of women in South Africa. I am sure this has contributed to your view of women as uniquely oppressed by men. However, if you look at the rape statistics from South Africa the number of men parallel those of women and they are mostly raped BY WOMEN:

    Some 9% (weighted value based on 13915/127097) of male respondents aged 11–19 years reported forced sex in the last year. Of those aged 18 years at the time of the survey, 44% (weighted value of 5385/11450) said they had been forced to have sex in their lives and 50% reported consensual sex. Perpetrators were most frequently an adult not from their own family, followed closely in frequency by other schoolchildren. Some 32% said the perpetrator was male, 41% said she was female and 27% said they had been forced to have sex by both male and female perpetrators. Male abuse of schoolboys was more common in rural areas while female perpetration was more an urban phenomenon.

    Why don`t feminists ever tell you this?

    http://www.genderratic.com/p/category/its-shit-like-this-feminists/page/2/

    I am also guessing you have been repeatedly told about how many women get raped in war and this has made you see rape as a tool men use for repressing and abusing women in war. Yet look at the numbers from Congo:

    http://www.genderratic.com/p/661/the-rape-culture-of-rape-awareness-advocates/

    The number of raped men is huge and women also partake in the rape of men and are responsible for over 40% of the rapes of women that men are blamed for. Also keep in mind that the real number of raped men is obviously a lot higher because a disproportionate number of the men that were in the war zones where mass rapes took place are DEAD and so can`t answer studies like the greater number of surviving women can.

    You would think feminists would be helpful in bringing these numbers to public attention. In stead they have worked as hard as they can to cover them up and to make sure male victims, which make up a huge number of the total victims, DO NOT GET HELP:

    “Her study cites a review of 4,076 NGOs that have addressed wartime sexual violence. Only 3% of them mentioned the experience of men in their literature. “Typically,” Stemple says, “as a passing reference.”

    “The organisations working on sexual and gender-based violence don’t talk about it,” he says. “It’s systematically silenced. If you’re very, very lucky they’ll give it a tangential mention at the end of a report. You might get five seconds of: ‘Oh and men can also be the victims of sexual violence.’ But there’s no data, no discussion.”

    “As part of an attempt to correct this, the RLP produced a documentary in 2010 called Gender Against Men. When it was screened, Dolan says that attempts were made to stop him. “Were these attempts by people in well-known, international aid agencies?” I ask.

    “Yes,” he replies. “There’s a fear among them that this is a zero-sum game; that there’s a pre-defined cake and if you start talking about men, you’re going to somehow eat a chunk of this cake that’s taken them a long time to bake.” Dolan points to a November 2006 UN report that followed an international conference on sexual violence in this area of East Africa.

    “I know for a fact that the people behind the report insisted the definition of rape be restricted to women,” he says, adding that one of the RLP’s donors, Dutch Oxfam, refused to provide any more funding unless he’d promise that 70% of his client base was female. He also recalls a man whose case was “particularly bad” and was referred to the UN’s refugee agency, the UNHCR. “They told him: ‘We have a programme for vulnerable women, but not men.’

    Yeah, feminists working to restrict the definition of rape so that men can not be counted as rape even when they are. Exactly like in the west where this has caused people to be unaware of the real number of raped men which they could have been decades ago. Why? Well if it did not look like rape was something only or mostly men did to women and not the other way around feminists wouldn`t have been able to demonize men and guilt them into becoming submissive to women like they have now would they.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/jul/17/the-rape-of-men

    These numbers from the article are also interesting to put it mildly:

    “In El Salvador, 76% of male political prisoners surveyed in the 1980s described at least one incidence of sexual torture. A study of 6,000 concentration-camp inmates in Sarajevo found that 80% of men reported having been raped.”

    Feminists have almost exclusively worked to silence the voices that have tried to bring attention to female sexual abuse:

    So, people reading here. What should you conclude from this. Certainly one thing. Rape is NOT in any way an issue of what men do to women. Ii is close to symmetrical. If you don`t stop framing the issue this you are only showing yourself to be working towards spreading hatred of men. Don`t do it again EVER. Secondly, since you have done such a good job of demonizing and shaming men on the basis of utterly false views of reality you have a karmic debt to pay. You need to compensate for having contributed to a distorted world view that makes it impossible for male victims to be believed, heard and helped and you have contributed to demonizing men and framing women as innately better than men. It is only reasonable that you put a similar effort into correcting the false damaging picture you have a part in creating by spreading this knowledge regarding rape of men, rape by females and that male rapists have usually been abused by women when they where boys.

    You should also take note of the fact that male resistance to feminist lies is growing at an incredible speed and will become massive very soon. You can see yourself that you are being met with a resistance in the comment field of this blog post and others by men and some women in a way that you where not a few years ago. Suddenly men are speaking up. Online the mens movement is growing fast. In just three months avoiceformen.com grew 111% and got bigger than the important and well funded feminist site feministing.com. A little later they grew bigger than the feminist male issues site goodmenproject.com. At the rate of growth they are having it won`t be all that much time before they outgrow the biggest feminist site on the web, Jezebel.com. And they are doing this with only donations and the activism of bloggers without position or power. The MRAs are coming and when they really break into the mainstream you are going to look really, really bad having contributed to spreading lies about men and contributing to misandry. Oh, and MRAs are not just men. Avoiceformen.com has 33% female readers and an even higher number of contributors.

    http://www.avoiceformen.com/a-voice-for-men/feministing-privileged-white-bitches-in-our-dust/

    http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/feministing-the-women-of-good-men-project/

    • Thank you for that very telling bit of information and the research that backs it up. This is precisely what I mean when I say it is time to stop focusing on just men, or just women. It is toxic and corrosive to actually trying to improve the lot of the victims.

      • I would just like to say, although this has very little to do with the article which made me stop and think, that someone needs to focus on the rape of women. They are standing up for a particular cause they believe in. Someone can also focus on the rape of men…I mean really why don’t you step up to the plate and raise awareness about this outside of commenting on articles? People portray feminists as against all things related to male rights but that is (for the most part) totally not true (also I know I am going off topic of refuting this particular comment). They are just taking on a corner of the world and sticking up for their gender…I mean really why is it so terrible to stick up for people like you? Anyway, instead of debating this (while debate is good, I mean that’s something related to democracy), people should stick up for what they believe in and take a stand. Make an organization or something. That got off topic I’m tired sorry everyone.

    • sorry buddy, you are TOTALLY full of shit. i say this as a man, and while you have some points about bringing men into the fold, you erect so many straw women that it’s a fucking fire hazard.

      The overwhelming majority of feminists are not out to deny the abuse experiences of men. That is just some lying bullshit. And I am too tired to to look at yer bullshit men whiny sites that you use for backups.

      furthermore: all of what you said had almost nothing to do with the article.

      and how tellingly hilarious that you would use some “these sites are growing faster than those sites” as some sort of win for truth. i’m sure there are plenty of straight-up racist anti-obama nutjobs sites that are growing faster than the NAACP site, so… it seems that *you might say that the Nazis are right? since when is morality decided by web traffic metrics?

      Whatever. I am not really responding to you, just typing for those too busy or tired of posts like this to bother responding. You need to look inside yourself and kill some of the bad monsters that you find there.

      • So, you are too worried to look at actual peer reviewed research instead of swallowing propaganda? Very enlightened of you. The author makes a valid point, and it IS relevant to the article because it was the OP that brought up rape and rape culture into the discussion, not the people commenting. If men do not have a right to be indignant at this type of stuff, than it logically follows that women do not either, so we are all just wasting time.

        But we DO have that right, and we will not shut up just because it is unpleasant for you to hear.

        • RAVaught, I am very glad that you treat the women in your life as equals and allow them to take responsibility. The idealist in you is very attractive to me. I am an idealist also, but the difference is that I see ideals as something to strive for, not something that already exist. As a culture, we do not socialize women to be able to take the kind of responsibility you want from them: girls get so many mixed messages about sex that making decisions can often feel like a catch-22 and might have very little to do with innermost wishes. Where boys are told to go after what they want, girls are told to protect themselves, do what boys want or they are cold hearted prudes, and avoid sex at all costs or they are irresponsible and self disrespecting sluts. Boys get very simple messages about sex: you want it, it’s good, go get it. As grown women, add the belief that the only way to keep a man interested is with sex, and also that men only like the chase, so you can’t give them what they want too soon. How can you hold both parties equally responsible to speak up for themselves, make quick decisions, and know what they want if they hold these deeply ingrained confusing beliefs?

          As much as I would like to treat men and women equally and hold them to equal standards, I recognize that sometimes women need a little extra communication. Call it coddling if you will.

          • I think you have some mistaken views about what boys are told growing up. We are told for most things to go after what we want, but when it comes to women we generally have a deference drilled into us that often becomes debilitating. Couple that with the message coming from women that say if you show any deference then you are not attractive, or if you show any courtesy you don’t respect them as independent women, and the medias twisted up messages about love, sex and everything else, and most guys wind up just as messed up as the women, just in different ways.

            This is my point that I have tried to make over and over and over. Feminist are so fixated on women that the lose sight of the big picture. If you could only step back and detach yourself from your gender bias for a moment you would see that the same crap is happening to EVERYONE, not just women. The exact same crap, expressed in subtly different ways.

            Do you think the fat boys are any less ostracized than fat girls? Or that smart boys are any less ostracized than smart girls? Do you think that all of those boys that were preyed on by the priests were isolated incidents? Do you think introverted boys are any less ridiculed for not being more out going than introverted girls?

            Men objectify women in porn, women objectify men in romance novels. Each are different in terms of presentation but they each create unrealistic expectations of the opposite sex. Men and women BOTH objectify each other in strip joints. The disparity between the number of women in the clubs or watching porn is offset by the number reading non-graphical erotica because it caters more towards what turns their crank.

            If we can hold men who grew up receiving just as many conflicting messages and under as much if not more pressure to perform to the standard of responsibility, why not women? That being said, if an INDIVIDUAL woman needs some extra attention, it is easy enough to say “I want to take things slow.” That doesn’t take much in the way of brains or courage. So again, I don’t cut slack in terms of personal responsibility. You might not agree with that, as is your right, but holding people truly accountable EQUALLY for their actions is the FIRST step that must happen from this point forward.

        • The rapid decline of this country can be tied directly to our [collective] inability to discern between knowledge and beliefs…

    • I am so happy you’re getting these stats out there. Women absolutely have to power to molest and even rape men and children.
      You do a very fine job of providing the evidence for the numbers. You do not, however, do a very fine job of convincing me this is a giant cover-up conspiracy headed by feminists (as if they are a single, organized unit bent on the destruction of men). You are seeing intentional conspiracy where there is probably a complex explanation. Of course feminists have an interest in making the rape cases of women heard. Does that mean that feminists are at fault for the non-belief or non-disclosure of cases of male rape? Is feminism at fault for the “fact” you put forth that children are less likely to accuse their mothers? Is feminism to blame for men who don’t report rape because it makes them feel emasculated? Are feminists to blame if social workers and psychologists have a hard time believing stories of “envelopment” rape, because it usually requires an erect or partially erect penis – which our culture usually associates with being sexually stimulated.
      You are choosing to make this issue a conspiracy of feminists, when in fact there are many other forces at play.

      • All I am going to say on this is, please do some of your own research into who has been coming up with rape statistics? Who were they funded by? What was their methodology?

        Again, I am not against any one individual feminist, or against all feminist. I am I against an idea that through misrepresentation, misdirection, dehumanization, dismissal, and sheer volume shape the thought patterns and spin the media so that the issue is only seen through their lens. Anyone argues with that idea automatically becomes someone trying to keep them down and a member of the patriarchy that is responsible for their grief. I am not the first, by far, or the only one to point this out. Between wishy-washy definitions of things like rape, molestation, harassment, and sexual assault, all of which have been twisted in the public view to be ‘women’s’ problems with men as the source and all of which change on a whim, people have been afraid to stand up and argue back because the laws are stacked against them. In short, confronting feminism head on has become dangerous. Do your own research. i would also recommend looking up an excellent columnist named Maggie McNeil if you want a more balanced, honest, and critical look at what is going on.

        Thank you for debating this subject with my Judie, I have truly enjoyed it.

        Warm Regards,

      • Not sure haha. A surgeon I think. It is the name of the soap opera characther Joey “played” on Friends.

    • First off, this is a column about how to have a good relationship and deal with consent and sex in a positive manner. Why are you dragging the conversation off-topic?

      Here’s a better link for the Barbara Kay column:
      http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/10/11/barbara-kay-women-are-not-always-the-gentler-sex/

      And the actual 2004 study by Ms. Shakeshaft is available online:
      https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:fF1VHuy1_scJ:www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjXxIFNIz4FWP_nPZTnWot63nVmhdMFop1M9zmfr9I4wRCv8tRXQvqYDQVATpuES4GzcoheRc51Mj4yzeA_MdjNMUlX0jeWquVJD8KkZrift3f9nzW8UqbBlXioGqQumjfCVFB4&sig=AHIEtbQ3tsPBYbfMXt2IA7qn2_Nggpav_A

      Sex abuse by either gender is a problem, but the study does show that a majority of sexual abusers were men (57% of students reporting child sexual abuse cited a male offender, and 42% reported a female offender.)

      And the column states, “According to a 1996 report from the National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect (NCCAN), about 25% of child sexual abuse is committed by women,”…which means 75% of it is committed by men.

      The columnist unfortunately does not list the peer-reviewed studies that state “….between 60-80% of “rapists, sex offenders and sexually aggressive men” were sexually abused by a female,” so we have no way to verify that. But regardless, there are a lot of people who’ve been sexually abused who do *not* go on to become rapists. People can always make the choice not to abuse other people.

      Your claim about men being raped by women is startling, and doesn’t match either my personal experience or the experience of anyone I know–and it doesn’t help when you’re claiming that the entire U.S. Dept. of Justice has the wrong definition. I’m not sure how you’re defining women “forcing” men to have sex. Male-on-MALE rape is certainly a substantial problem, particularly in prison, and I applaud organizations that are tackling that.

  5. You lost me when you used pornography as a healthy example of sexual behavior. The first issue is that the the woman is saying ‘yes’, but to whatever the man wants the woman to do. Much of which is very demeaning. Secondly, pornographic images are fantasies of actual sexual encounters, not examples of healthy sexual behavior we should be modeling ourselves after. Thirdly, I think there is an undeniable parallel that the abominable term “rape culture” has arisen about the same time adolescent boys raised on mobile pornography have come of age. We can’t possibly argue for sexual intimacy and human value when we commodify sex/people like cars or beer.

    • I am not using pornography as a “healthy example of sexual behavior”; I am using pornography as an example of how the word “yes” is used in current media culture to be erotic. At the most base level, hearing the word “yes” from porn stars is meant to be sexy and turn people on, regardless of the larger context of the encounter. Certainly, most pornography is not a healthy model for consent as I am painting it. But I wanted to remind people how sexy the word is considered, even under current cultural conditions.

  6. Pingback: Sexual Consent: What It Is and What It Isn’t | Charlotte's (World Wide) Web·

  7. Pingback: Making Sex Sacred: The Art of Asking|Teeni Dakini·

  8. I am actually looking for a response from the OP on this. If you are a female engaged in a F-F relationship, what makes you think that translates to the dynamics in a M-F or M-M relationship? It stands to reason that a people seeking a F-F relationship are looking for something that is fundamentally different from other types of relationships in a way that extends beyond the simple physical. Hence, what a person in a F-F relationship finds validating and attractive would not be the same in what a person in a M-F relationship finds attractive.

    Thoughts?

    • In this case what stands to reason does not stand to fact. Some lesbians are like you say, looking for something different, but most have a similar desire for dominance or submission, just not with a man. The idea that dominance is necessary for any situation to be sexy is pervasive in our culture and transcends explicit gender roles in reality, however much it is restricted to men in pop culture.

      • I am not saying that dominance is necessary, but I would say it is probably THE most generally desired scenario for most people. Not simply male domming female, but rather one partner domming the other in general. There is a lot of research that points to it being directly related to the way that we work and the stressors in modern society.

    • From what I have encoutnered/heard/read, once you remove the physical element, there is surprisingly very few differences between MM or FF relationships and MF relationships, even though there may be many who go into this territory thinking they’ll find something different. And it makes sense, if you look deep enough into the studes that have blown out the “Men are from Mars; Women are from Venus myth. Hence I’d suggest this is why you see more Bi people emerging, people who have gone to the other side and discovered it to be a wash, with those staying one or the other based more solely on the physical aspect than anythign esle, which is entirely understandable.

  9. Straight male here, and my god, thank you for this article. I do have an additional thought however, but not a contradiction of any kind, and definitely not in the tenor of most of the straight dude comments on here.

    The thing that jumps out at me is the fact that your obersvations touch on a larger issue of how women feel like they should act when it comes to sex, which is something that I feel like is just as deadly as how men are taught to view sex in our culture, in that they are still taught that women are meant to be pursued.

    Even in your own phrasing, its apparent just how rooted this idea is for women in our society, even with lesbian relationships. Instead of her vocalizing what she wants initially, you’re, in your own words, “allowing them” to respond as opposed to the good ol’ “saying no right as it’s about to happen.”

    To me, that highlights the exact same problem you’re talking about even more starkly. Yes, it’s definitely a step in the right direction to pose the question, but why not teach women to simply state their intentions from the get go?

    A gay male friend of mine once characterized the differences between gay men and lesbians as the fact that sexual interest is never, ever a gray area. Both sides will let the other know if they want to get busy with the other pretty much immediately.

    But when it comes to women, they instead have been taught that they not only SHOULD be the ones pursued, but that they somehow must be.

    Always making the first move and essentially playing the dominant role is expected FROM women. And believe me, I don’t tend to date meek or traditionally-minded girls; even with the self-assured, confident, and egalitarian women, they still tend to wait for you to act.

    To make it worse, many women I’ve known have flat out said that they find men asking “permission” to be grossly unattractive, because they prefer the idea of a roguish guy sweeping them into their arms.

    This does not help things much, obviously.

    As far as I can see where it comes from on this side of the equation, the best thing that I can see women doing is to be taught the opposite of what they are now, and that if anything, THEY should be making the first move.

    When I’ve talked to women about this, they’ve voiced reticence for only one aspect, which is the belief that men somehow prefer to be the ones chasing after women, ie “dominant.”

    Men I’ve spoken to say that they have to make the first move because women somehow enjoy being the ones chased after, ie “submissive.”

    From where I’m standing, the continuation of this dynamic works off of both of these notions, and both ideas are just archaic assumptions that we’ve continued to proliferate for no reason. It feeds into rape culture in a massive way, and creates the problem you just describe: BOTH genders expect women to either “consent by silence,” or say “no” when they don’t want something instead of SAYING WHAT THEY WANT.

    The basic point I’m making is that simply “pausing now and then and allowing them to say YES and ask for what they want,” isn’t nearly enough. Men learning when to accept when to stop and that “no means no” also isn’t enough.

    But if we can somehow dismiss with these ridiculous, baseless assumptions both genders make and teach girls from a young age that an assured woman who is upfront and vocal about what they want instead of the Jane Austen stereotype of a damsel awaiting the approaches of a man, then we can actually see some progress.
    If it’s wrong to view women as meek and in need sexual subjugation, which it is, women also have to stop idolizing men who view women
    in this way. And they do. Quite a bit. (Twilight, anyone?)

    Of course, I should clarify that I’m definitely NOT trying to imply that this is now entirely the fault of women, but I’m also not saying that it is entirely the fault of men. It’s a cultural problem and one that both genders have to work to rectify.

    TL;DR version: I agree with everything you said, but by teaching women to act with sexual dominance and that men actually DO think its sexy for you to be both self-assured and vocal about who and what they want, not only situations where women are given the opportunity to say “yes” arise more often, but any question of consent at all will be almost entirely removed. Women should be
    taught that silence isn’t sexy, but assertiveness is.

    Again, brilliant post from you, and look forward to more.

    • Thank you, Tyler! I agree with you completely and I really appreciate your comment. You’re right that this is a baby-step towards a much larger goal. It is so gratifying to read your thoughts! 🙂

    • I read your entire comment and while in theory female pursuit makes sense…it simply doesn’t pan out. Men know who they want and women respond or shut down. Men absolutely do not want to be pursued by women for relationships.

      • Incorrect. Men like lots of things. Some men like pursuing, some like being pursued, some like both. People are complex!

      • I wrote an article last month called “Please speak for yourself,” aimed at these kind of generalizations. It is simply not productive or true to make any kind of statement about “all men” or “all women” because the variation is endless. Some men certainly would like to be pursued, however much it may not be the norm.

  10. My reaction to the original article is to feel overall annoyed…. The essence seems to be that the man should check out with the woman if something is ok, rather than relying on the woman to say no…. But this still assumes the woman to be passive. What about the other 50% option, of the woman leading, and checking out with the man if he’s ok with it?…. The whole focus still assumes we are done to… I like to do the doing…. At least half the time, anyways…

  11. I quote: “The next night I asked her, “What do you want?” and she boldly kissed me for the first time.” According to this she wanted to kiss and so she just did what she wanted. Perhaps his consent was implied but the point of the article is to not assume consent. This stuff cuts both ways and it shouldn’t be assumed that all men want sex all the time. How much better if she’d looked into his eyes and said “May I kiss you now?”

        • You are absolutely right, Richard. Thank you. In this case, my consent did carry over and I had made that clear to my now-girlfriend in the form of my very obvious leading question, “What do you want?” which had other connotations based on the camp we were working at, etc. Our culture has a very unfortunate aggressor/aggressee format for dating, flirting, and relationship consent, in which one person makes clear their intentions and the other has to respond with theirs. I am not theoretically in favor of this model, but practically, it is difficult to get around without being very intentional. As a young person negotiating the dating world early in my life, I was not yet thinking in these consent terms. As I tried to make clear in my essay, this experience was one of learning for me. I am very glad y’all have picked up on the theory and hope that you will focus on implementing it in your own life!

  12. Reblogged this on Happy Belly and commented:
    This blog so beautifully articulates a very real inner struggle for me. Reading it felt as if the words I had not yet figured out how to form where taken from my mouth and arranged coherently on the page before me. Read this.

  13. Pingback: Link Roundups | ShoutOut! JMU·

  14. Pingback: Weekend Reading | Backslash Scott Thoughts·

  15. There are men AND women who do not want potentially sexual interactions to be scripted like this. In fact, it’s quite normal to not think this way. It’s fine if you do, but do not insult me or other people who disagree with what we consider convoluted steps in intimate contact by suggesting that not doing it your way is a precursor to rape. It isn’t a precursor to rape.

    If I’m dating a chick who thinks pegging is cool (in case you don’t know, it’s when you stick your finger in your partner’s anus) and she tries it on me at ANY point, I’m going to say “no” because I find it extremely uncomfortable. I’m not going to be offended because she tried, I’m not going to tell her that she should have asked first, I’m just going to say “no” and leave it at that. In a private, potentially sexual encounter, people shouldn’t feel bad about being spontaneous and trying things without having a conversation about it.

    I don’t like receiving oral sex. I find it very uncomfortable. I can’t count how many times that girls I’m with seem to take that as a challenge. “Well, maybe you’ve never just had it done properly”. This AFTER they tried it and I stopped them. And you know what? I just say no. I feel like I’m regarded as a freak sometimes, but whatever. I shouldn’t feel insecure about establishing my boundaries. It’s not a big deal.

    As a guy, I can tell you right now that for me, it would be incredibly sexy and cool if a girl called the shots. The thing is, because of how sexual arousal works, it often times doesn’t work this way (at least, in heterosexual interactions). There is an important biological factor here: men are aroused A LOT easier than women. While that doesn’t mean that men shouldn’t LISTEN to their partners during sexual encounters (THEY SHOULD, WITH NO EXCEPTIONS), what it DOES mean is that the way things are naturally wired kind of put the ball in the man’s court for arousing his partner.

    I’ve had a few girlfriends. Sometimes, during foreplay (with one in particular), she would stop my advances. Then, fifteen minutes, she’d be ripping my clothes off. Cool. Another wanted me to take control, be a little bit assertive. Make her feel wanted, I guess. The typical person interprets hesitancy as a lack of desire, and that DOES kill the mood.

    On top of it all, I feel this article is sex-negative. A novel idea: not every sexual encounter involves a potential rape.

  16. To me, asking, “Is this okay?” is not the only way to go about this. What if we actually communicated boldly, not timidly? What if instead of, “Is this ok?” someone said to you, “Tell me what you like.” or “I WANT to hear you say YES. So if you like what I am doing, say it!” To me nothing is more take charge than stating what you want. If you want to make me come, then tell me you do and we can get it done together!

  17. Pingback: Let’s talk about consent in practice. | Disrupting Dinner Parties·

    • Extremely rare. Not discounting female to male rape but it is a grain of sand on the beach of male to female and male to male rape.

  18. Fabulous! I love this re-take on consent. It is SO NEEDED to find a new norm for approaching sex. I have had too many experiences of what I call “sliding instead of deciding” into sex. Essentially, my partner or I have gotten caught up in the moment and before I could put all parts of myself into it, the act was over and I was left wondering, “Did I really want that?” Sex can be so fabulous when approached whole-heartedly and with all of me screaming “Yes!” I choose consent.

  19. Its interesting reading through all of these comments because your all pretty much on the same side. You all see a problem of inequality, of our society molding people into something they should not be.

    For both men and women everything is confused, hard to comprehend and crazy on such a large scale that the imbalance manifests through a rape culture. Its not just a tweak either, its the way the system was designed.

    We are all different and unique individuals yet we are all taught in one way or another to surrender our preference to a pre-determined script of what should happen in relationships. Men and women are supposed to both give up their power for the sake of ‘our’ cultural ideals but why?

    The real reason for this problem is power. When people on the bottom surrender their power then the extreme few on the top, the people who really call the shots and live of the rest of us. Our division on the bottom is free license for them to exploit the rest of us. Its not economical as much as psychological.

    Those at the top wrote the script on what we learn as kids which leads to the misunderstandings we live with. And they want it that way.

    The rape culture will never go away under this system of living because its useful to them. It keeps good people in fear and bad people roaming free. Good people get scared and ask those at the top for help. They then use that power to re-write the rules even more and drive things crazier in the name of trying to help.

    And instead of enacting real change the good people spend their time trying to understand what is happening and why its not being fixed.

    The only true way to ‘fix’ anything is to teach ourselves and our children to skeptically look at everything they have been told and look inward. Reclaim your inner power that those at the top stole from you and teach those around you to do so.

    Only then can you be truly free and in control. And when this happens to enough people the system will cease to exist in place of a new one where these problems don’t exist because the power they had stolen is returned.

    The people who are responsible for creating rape culture and misunderstandings in the first place cannot continue unless good people surrender their power and let them.

  20. I’ve got your solution for the whole problem, YLF.

    Get a shot clock.

    Mount a shot clock on the top of your headboard so you have, say, thirty seconds on it. You can slap a button to reset the clock but if you don’t press it and just let the clock run out, it triggers a loud burglar alarm and signals police via satellite that you have just been brutally raped.

    Or it could pop a gun out and just shoot your partner in the head. Self defense, yo.

    OR, and I realize this sounds crazy, YOU could just take the initiative and start making all the moves yourself instead of laying back and letting your partner do all the heavy lifting in the relationship. I understand it’s comforting to the ego to have someone else scrambling around trying to figure out what makes you happy, while you occasionally deign to permit them a step further, but seriously? Your ego is WAY off the charts here, kid.

    Two weeks dating as a man would have you BEGGING to go back. You have no idea what kind of nonsense you’re perpetuating, when a man can make all the moves, do all the work, make all the phone calls and advances, drop thousands in cash for dinner, dates, gifts and such, and you just accept it all like it’s your DUE. And on TOP of that, you get to just call police and report him as a rapist if he ever does something you don’t like, whether he’s laid a hand on you or not, and he goes to prison.*

    But somehow that’s not enough for you – you want more. You want your partner to BEG your permission every five seconds instead of taking the initiative and helping to direct the action (zomg as if sex were a two-way street or something! the horror!).

    Your issues run a hell of a lot deeper than rape, I’ll tell you that much for free. Seek help and medication. Today.

    *take a moment to review all the studies presented here by others, which you have conveniently ignored.

    • Are you for real? WTFHFLMAO@TARDS stands for what? “Watch This Frivolous Hysterical Fucking Loser Mouth Assinine Oratorios @ reTARDS?” It certainly doesn’t mean “having an open mind” or “wanting to learn about others’ experiences in the world” or “perhaps I should pay more attention to the fragile glass walls of my own house before I throw stones at my neighbors”. Unless you are an educated and trained psychologist or psychiatrist please refrain from making comments about ylf’s mental or psychological health. if that’s the way you operate in the world then it makes sense why you would have the user id that you do. But seriously, grow up, get rid of the chip on your shoulder and don’t bother to read blogs unless you are going to try to understand where the writer is coming from and learn something about the world. Reading a blog without the intention of expanding your consciousness, increasing your awareness, and connecting with others on a certain topic is ridiculous waste of time and energy. It seems like you, as well as several others, have read this blog, and may very well be reading other blogs. that fuel your anger about all the “injustices” that “men” have to endure and want to spew that rage all over everyone else who has read that blog. Do yourself and everyone else a favor and spew into a journal or your coffee or at your male version of “stitch and bitch”. then come back and make intelligent comments that make a positive contribution to the discussion. It that’s, in fact, even possible.

  21. Pingback: The “My Bookmark Dashboard is Full” Link RoundUp! | Temperance·

  22. Pingback: Sexual Assault Centre of Edmonton·

  23. Pingback: UN-MEMORIZING THE “SILENCE IS SEXY” DATE SCRIPT | Reflexive·

  24. Pingback: Un-Memorizing the “Silence is Sexy” Date Script | Reflexive·

  25. Pingback: Talking About Sex (Without Gender Stereotypes) | Sex, Gender, And All That Jazz·

  26. Pingback: Yes, please « Snippets of random·

  27. Pingback: Patriarchy is not your fault, but it is your responsibility. | Queer Guess Code·

  28. Maybe I expect too much of my fellow men, but I certainly don’t mind at all when a woman draws a line. I just make a mental note and continue whatever we were already doing. It shows respect when a man heeds a woman’s cautions, and it shows respect when a woman understands that we’re not creeps for trying. And (believe it or not!) I’ve stopped women from going further than I am comfortable too. I don’t take it personally. I think as long as your partner respects your wishes when you make them known, there is no need to feel unsexy or awkward about anything. I also think the notion that men need to initiate intimacy is antiquated. You women are masters of your bodies. You need neither be shy about your wants, nor give away more than you’re willing.

  29. Pingback: Maybe We Should Start on “Yes Means Yes,” No? | Not Taken, Not Available·

  30. Pingback: https://queerguesscode.wordpress.com/2013/03/22/un-memorizing-the-silence-is-sexy-date-script/ | * Communicating Gender in a Transitional Era *·

  31. Pingback: Kissing and Feeling Up, in Public, on the First Date | Would Rather Vomit·

  32. Pingback: Un-Memorizing the “Silence is Sexy” Date Script | thegooddate·

  33. Pingback: Discovery: Yes and No | CurvyHK·

  34. An outstanding share! I’ve just forwarded this onto a co-worker who has been doing a little homework on this. And he actually bought me dinner simply because I found it for him… lol. So let me reword this…. Thanks for the meal!! But yeah, thanx for spending the time to talk about this topic here on your site.

  35. Pingback: Fifty Shades of Progressive Dialogue « Between the Lightning Bug and the Lightning·

  36. There are a couple pretty angry dudes in the comment section! In particular this stuck out: “Why would he be hanging out with you if he didn’t want to have sex?” Oy.

    I started on a response (since I suspect I’ve been in that headspace myself earlier in life), but it kept morphing until I finally had a blog entry of my own. So yeah, thanks for writing this!

    Since my pingback isn’t working right now(?) here’s the response: http://www.davidsmcwilliams.com/2013/04/10/the-real-reason-you-cant-get-women/

    • David, It’s nice to hear a guy’s response to some of the really “angry dudes”! ha ha. As a follower who has struggled to deal with them I really appreciate your response! Thanks!

      • Cat, glad you dug it! Gotta say, I’m new to blogging and when someone says they enjoy my work it still blows my mind a little bit.

  37. “Even more troubling is the possibility that a woman might not know how or when to put the brakes on, and by simply hesitating for too long, could end up doing any variety of things against her innermost wishes. Oh wait! That happens all the time. It’s called rape. ”

    I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying here. It sounds like you’re saying that if a woman doesn’t say that she doesn’t want to do something, and winds up doing it anyway, even though her partner has no idea that she doesn’t want to do it, that’s rape. Am I reading that correctly?

    If so, I’m not sure I follow the logic – it sounds like what would appear like a totally legitimate consensual encounter to one of the participants can become rape if one of the other participants is uncommunicative (for one reason or another) about what they don’t want to do. If you’re not checking in constantly – which certainly is a nice thing to do, no question – and the other person doesn’t speak up when an un-negotiated boundary is crossed, how do you know if you’ve suddenly become a rapist?

    Otherwise, really good article. Aside from the one other confusing bit near the end (where she boldly kisses you without checking in to see if it’s still okay), excellent advice.

    • I agree Marc that the situation is utterly unfair for both parties. It is not fair for a man to be called a rapist simply for doing what he has been told is right and expected and what he thinks both parties want. It is not fair for a woman to be faced with the daunting task of communicating her wishes when from birth she has likely been raised utterly unequipped to do so, something not easily understood by those of us who have our wits about us. Too many women (and men too, but that’s less cultural and more individual) were taught not to understand their own desires or to be confused and repelled by them, or ashamed; not to trouble the waters, to please other people and ignore their own wishes; to be out of touch with their bodies and intimidated by their own pleasure. There is also this factor: that women are pummeled with messages about their own irrationality and poor decision-making which is likely to cause even more self-doubt and second guessing. God forbid I forget the messages that women are whores if they have sex but stingy and cold if they don’t, combined with the messages that men only care about women for sex and will be uninterested without it, but will also be uninterested without the chase.

      This is not an environment for healthy decision-making, and the structure which allows silence to be sexy makes it even harder, because a woman may appear willing and sexy while actually debating furiously inside, and simply by saying nothing, she can indicate her legal consent without ever having made it through half the questions I have listed above. It is un-fair for both parties, and patient, vocal communication is the only solution.

      • Unfortunately, patient vocal communication isn’t actually the answer at all. Think about it. By the time a couple can patiently and vocally communicate there is no longer a problem. But how do people get to that stage? By willing themselves out of the swamp of ignorance through sheer magic? The actual solution is that people who know have to educate people who do not. And support them. This is a painfully slow process that takes generations. Saying that a guy should have known better is no different to saying a girl should have explained better. In both cases you are asking people to magically shed their shroud of culturally provided ignorance, fear, identity, and so on. And they probably don’t even know they are wearing it.

        • As you may have noticed by my blog (which you are reading, by the way), ending ignorance and spreading knowledge is by far my top priority, so you’re preaching to the choir.

          I agree that saying a guy should have known better is just as bad as saying a girl should have explained better, which is why I never said a guy should know better. I said a guy should ask, and listen, and seek to understand before assuming. In return, a girl should practice speaking what she wants, recognizing and accepting what she wants and being proud of it instead of ashamed. Where prudent, the roles may be switched. I do not suggest this is a quick fix, but people learn best by doing and experiencing, so I try to suggest new experiences where I can.

          • I didn’t mean to sound combative, sorry. It’s just that I feel passionate about educating people instead of judging them. And I’m not saying you were doing that either.

Share your thoughts!

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s